Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] todd's essay on the differences in manufacturing standards is very illustrative of why ln, lv, and other premium planes are worth what you pay for them. pity he didn't also show the difference in sole flatness and polish the premium planes have over the more workaday offerings.

however, i disagree with the earlier assertion in someone else's post that a block plane does not need a flat sole to work well, and further believe that since the sole is so short, unevenness in the sole will have an even greater effect on the accuracy of it's performance. also, a rough, unpolished, unflat sole on any plane is a real drag, literally and figuratively, particularly when you have to control it with only one hand..

do you have a tablesaw? if so i would encourage you to have a look at the recent thread wherein the tablesaws use with the licis jig in making the scarf joint was discussed by john and me among others. a much easier method to achieve satisfactory result than using the hand saw and plane.[/QUOTE]

I'm actualy planing on using the table saw to make the cut and then the plane to "clean" it up. Is that a good plan?

Todd,

Thanks for the pics and tutorial. This is Very useful.

using a good blade all you will have to do is glue it up!!

[QUOTE=ToddStock] A block plane can clean up this joint, but a bench plane is a bit easier to handle at first.

A good table saw will do a decent job on the scarf, although 3" of blade above the table can be a bit scary (and should be - use a good, solid jig, do a dry run on the cut to see where your fingers and toes need to be to stay clear, and never work with any tool if you are tired, angry, or feeling particularly stupid...).[/QUOTE]

I feel particularly stupid almost everyday! I haven’t decided if I'm going to use the table saw or the band saw. If the table saw I feel like have to get a new blade, thinking about the disable 10' 50T(not sure about the 50T, its something in the 40-60 range though) as the stock blade is still on it. I have had it for some time but not used it for fine woodworking.


I have 3 blades for the handsaw already. A rough, med and fine. All from home depot.

[QUOTE=ToddStock] Right you are - if the jig is solid and the saw is working, should get a glue-line cut.[/QUOTE]

I'm planing on making a sled basicly. Make some test cuts with some 2x4's!

[QUOTE=Miketobey] google "Brass City Records"- yep, you read it right. Walt Q. Reliable as a chunk of granite. Link to his tool portion. He will sell you a gem, will come well adjusted and honed. Get a model with an ADJUSTABLE MOUTH- yes, I';m shouting. This fellow will fix you right up. If you buy and aren't happy, I will buy from you including whatever shipping expense you incur-I'm serious. My go to LA Block is the Veritas-Adj. mouth- only downside on the apron if I recall correctly. I'll make the same offer if you buy the LV LA and don't like it.No bull. By the way, I own 11 LN planes and I'll make the same deal on their 60 1/2,too. Ebay is a crap shoot if you are not well versed, especially when it comes to the mouths. Regards, MT[/QUOTE]


That's my bud Mike, He talks the talk and he sure walks the walk ! You're a good man Mike!

YF Serge

this is a crosscut for which i use a very fine finish blade, 80 tooth iirc.

YOU WILL COME TO REGRET BUYING ANY BLOCK PLANE THAT DOES NOT HAVE AN ADJUSTABLE MOUTH! Unless you are really $ pinched don't skimp there. And, unless you really know what you are doing, fettling a plane,block or bench takes knowing your goals. From your initial remarks, do you believe you know how a properly tuned plane acts or feels? I hate to sound so arrogant, but Todd's pictorial tells the story. And, with the second iron, beveled steeper, you do have the equivalent of a standard. For the two blade plan, the LV is better because of its adjuster(Norris type) and two clever little setscrews in the cheeks that keep the iron square to the mouth. Heck, before I'll let you make the mistake, I'll buy another LV or LN, have it shipped to you, and if you aren't happy enough to pay me for it, you can send it home to me at my expense. PM Serge- he'll guarantee that I'm dead serious. Regards, MT

The original post indicated a price range of $30-60, and I haven't seen any change in that goal.
The repetitious arguments for planes that will cost the better part of $150 to get through the door don't really match the budget stated.
It's not necessary to get the 'gold standard' in tools to build a guitar- or practically anything for that matter. Whenever I see the basic but well-tuned tools that the masters used, I'm humbled.
Better to concentrate on learning how to sharpen and maintain your plane- no matter what you have. I've built a few guitars, a lute, a fiddle, a bunch of boats and a bunch of 'fine' furniture with a pretty basic collection of planes.
Now I gotta write that letter to Santa about my new collection of LN planes!
John

John- fair comment- you are correct. To stay in the $ range, I would say that Walt at the brass city I noted above is most likely to meet the goal.MT

Thanks to all of you for your guidance on my purchase. I order to stay in budget for this tool, and keep up the progress on my guitar, I decided to go with the LN 102.


Miketobey
I thank you for trying to save me from a regret. I’m prepared to replace the plane with the day comes that I can tell and adjustable mouth from a bottle or milk and realize that day maybe sooner than later. I plan on buying a larger plan for my tops soon and will strongly consider the Brass City Records.

I also picked up a Granite Surface Plate and a VERITAS MK. II Honing Guide. Now I have to go learn how to make it scary sharp!

The nice thing about Lie-Nielsen stuff is that it retains it's value well, so if you keep it in good condition and you ever want to "trade up," you can sell it on eBay for not much less than what you paid for it.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I really want to especially thank Todd, John, Mike et.al. for their tireless tutorials on hand planes. They are clearly our recognized experts on planes and always have a confidently knowledgeable yet patient approach to the questions that arise. Thanks again, planemeisters!

As an intermediate planer, I second the urging to learn sharpening techniques early on. Even a cheap plane performs well with a scary sharp iron...preferably from Ron Hock.

Sure would be nice to have that library where posts such as these could reside.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I second that JJ. They were alot of help in my decision making process. Now I just have to learn how to get it scary sharp!

Great info!! I learn a lot every day I read posts here. Amazing.
I just wanted to chime in that I've recently had a couple bad experiences buying planes on eBay, so I searched out a different reputable source of used planes, as most of the antique places around here don't have very good operating planes and the ones they do have, they think they're made of gold or something.
I would highly reccommend this guy -----> Walt at Brass City
He's been excellent to me and always has some incredible old hand tools at great prices. I've gotten a couple Nicholson files recently that are perfect.
Just wanted to offer that if you're looking for a good source outside of auction sites.
-j.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

What JJ, Alan et J. said: Todd, Mike and John and Al always have very interesting threads and conversations on this and other topics as well, namely Bandsaws!

I feel that we are a privileged bunch to have such quality people like them on here! So thanks to all of you for the priceless friendship and precious insight!

Thanks for the kind words everybody.
Todd- Thank you for the pics and tutorial on planes- gonna put that one next to my wife's breakfast paper to explain why I need new tools!

This is the internet doing what its 'supposed to do'.
Cheers
John
....off to the shop to make big boards into small boards

SO heres a questions.

If Used planes are so good. Why are people getting rid of them?

Most used planes are not found in tuned condition. In this world, also, power tools rule for many folks. So, many of what were well setup and maintained planes have deteriorated over time. I use power for rough dimensioning but do finish shaping, squaring, jointing,thicknessing, dovetailing with handtools. I do not have a production schedule to meet, nor waiting clients for commissioned work, so I have the luxury of time.Precise work with powertools takes care and concentration- and experience. So, I judge not. On the other hand, compare the glassy surface of a planed or scraped wood surface with the subtle fuzz of a sanded one-now there is a result difference.
      Because of this thread, I dared to count my planes-48, which among many of my friends makes me a minnow. I'm now too scared to count chisels/carving tools.
     There is a genuine value in a Veritas or LN as a first plane, if it can be managed. It is amazing the difference in the sound and feel of a well tuned and very sharp plane( I do final hone LV's and LN's but that is a function of my little "illness"). I wish I could stand next to you and hand you the average vintage Stanley and then a fettled one or a top flight new plane. I would get to see your eyes light up and hear the proverbial "AAhhh". Then we would scribble some beeswax on the soles and make it even better. Now, if you really want to throw fuel on the glowing embers, get me started on honing. I hone for the sheer pleasure I get from it, even before the edge touches wood. Like I said, "illness." MT

Nice summation, Mike T.
I was once in the "Power Tools are Better" category, but since have found the joy in using a freshly sharpened plane and/or chisel and properly burnished scrapers and I am now much more in the hand tool side of the fence.
Used planes surface on the market place for many reasons, with these 2 being the most popular, I think:
1) Someone bought decent tools, but never learned how to hone and sharpen them, how to tune them up, so once they came out of the box, they just sorta worked, but power tools and a sander were better, so they ended up on craigslist, eBay, or a garage sale
2) Grandfathers and Great Grandfathers handed down the tools to someone who did not see the value in those precious gifts and "got rid of them" (see also: mothers who threw out "old junky" boxes of sports cards)

Sometimes people just loose interest in woodworking, the wife says something has to go.....whatever. For one reason or another, they get sold. This is NOT indicative of a lack of value or performance.
I, for one, am glad they end up on the marketplace.
Don't get me wrong, power tools have their place in my shop (actually, most of my shop), but there really is nothing like using a plane as described above.

-j.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

yep...I didn't know how much work was involved in fettling and tuning my recently acquired planes back to usable condition.....
I went to a tool sale found an old bailey #5 and old record #4 ....started reading lie-nielson's book on sharpening .....and 2 weeks later and many nights of sore hands finally got them working great ....

In the end you have a far greater understanding of how to do it although I'm not in a hurry to buy any more old planes. But it saved me a pile of cash really and i learnt a lot

You guys are giving TAS seriously here, most of my shop is pwer tools but i aimat going the Planes and chisel route too, Mike's description sounded so satisfying that i think the credit card will get it's last blow!

LN for starters Mike? Stanley? I also have a gift card for HD to use, what is good to buy there in terms of good planes?

Hey Mike, where do you live. I've gotta see that plane collection!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

If you want to see a plane collection, check out this thread I started several weeks ago.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Jon..I remember that thread well...very impressive!

I've developed a love for planes in the past 3 years and use them frequently. But I sure would love to get an in-person tutorial from one of our resident Planemeisters.

Any of you guys located near Indiana?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com